So, yeah, leave immediately if you haven't read it.







What happened to Stannis? The Boltons? Where did everyone at Winterfell go? Do you really think that Jon is dead? Who do you think sent Jon that letter at the end?

Going in reverse, isn't it kind of odd that the Braavosi banker was able to find Theon and Jayne somewhere right outside of Winterfell, but Winterfell was deserted (or something), yet you're made to think that Ramsay sent Jon the letter demanding that Theon and Jayne be returned and that he has Mance as a captive. Is Winterfell really deserted or did they just not answer the door for the banker? The Boltons were in the midst of freezing and starving themselves. If they are still in Winterfell or somewhere close by, how did they not find Theon and Jayne, yet this banker accidentally stumbled upon them?

Jon is dead. You need to actually see it happen in these books before you know for sure and we saw it. Stabbed multiple times. The POV at the Wall will probably switch to Melisandre in the next book. All hell is definitely going to break loose at the wall now.

So... Dany is going to be back in a Dothraki khalasaar? At the end it says, "and that's where Khal whoever found her." This is a new character, or maybe some obscure Dothraki horselord mentioned briefly who knows when. Either way, it looks like she's going to be back with the Dothraki for at least a little while. I would guess that she gets saved by the black dragon or they team up, she gets the other dragons together and they burn Meereen down. Whatever happens, that was a lame ass ending. Meereen isn't even on the map in the book... where the fuck is this city anyway? I mean, I know it's not Westeros, duh, but not having it on the map seems weird.

What a complete waste of time all that Meereen, sons of the Harpy, political nonsense was. In Storm, she was sacking cities and wreaking havoc, destroying everything in their path to free the slaves in what you assumed was in her eventual quest to get back to Westeros. But she stops in Mereen (or however it's spelled), sets up shop, claims herself queen and starts to care about "her people"... huh?? Fuck that shit. And then we have to endure hundreds of pages of this insufferable and pointless history of Mereen and other Free Cities, stupid traditions and customs about marriage, fighting pits, blah blah BLAH. Who gives a SHIT? Keep it in Westeros! Aside from Pentos, Braavos and the Dothraki, does anyone give a CRAP about that side of the map??

They chain up the dragons because one of them killed a kid in a rural village outside the city? HUH?? Well... maybe you shouldn't be farting around in this stupid city!! You need ships?? YOU HAVE DRAGONS AND THOUSANDS OF SLAVE WARRIORS!! TAKE ALL THE FUCKING SHIPS YOU WANT! Fucking serious?? !!!

The Targaryen prince still being alive was a nice twist, but Tyrion sure did pick up on that rather quickly. Did we really need to read about them floating down the river for over a hundred pages? And what's this "greyscale" bullshit? Come on Martin, you just going to start making shit up as you go? Their boat just happens to go past the land of the greyscale zombies and they fall onto their boat? Jesus, what a waste of time. If Tyrion does end up contracting "greyscale" (he continually was pricking his fingers throughout the book, just so you wouldn't forget about it) and that somehow leads to his death later on, I'm going to be pissed. Weak sauce.

I think Arya is being groomed to become an assassin and is going to take out someone important later on, or a few someones.

And are the Bran chapters just going absolutely nowhere or what? So Bran is destined become part of the Weirwoods or something? How are Hodor, Jojen and Meera supposed to get back? I guess maybe they'll amass some army of treants and forest... things.

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kitteh

the khal that found dany at the end was one of drogo's blood riders that split off and formed his own crew once drogo died. he never liked dany.

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"prison ain't so bad, you can make sangria in the terlet. 'course it's shank or be shanked''"

I had a feeling it was one of them, but couldn't remember any names. She'll probably be treated like a slave whore or something and then the black dragon will save her.

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kitteh

The greyscale has been around for awhile, since at least the introduction of Stannis' daughter.

I think Jon will survive somehow. It's hard guessing who wrote the letter, could have been so many but I think it could have been from someone on the watch, maybe Bowen, but that's probably too simplistic.

Overall I enjoyed the book, but it felt a little out of whack due to the timeline, and POVs favoring a minority of characters, popular as they might be. I'm glad he's got the timeline straightened out now and can go forth will all of the characters/stories more evenly balanced.

My favorite chapters were the Theon ones believe it or not. And I wanted more on Bran.

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You turn me on when your heart is pounding
It's ecstasy when I hear you scream
I flash a knife to your paralyzed eyes
And only I will watch you die
Psychopath - on the loose

Has it? I know it was mentioned in this book that she was scarred from it, but I don't remember that at all from the earlier books. Seems like I would have, but maybe not. Especially if it was just hardly mentioned in passing because I can bet that it wasn't described in any detail. That would have been in Clash and I only read that a year and a half ago.

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kitteh

yeah, shireen (is that her name?) is mentioned as having a scarred face from grayscale as early as 'clash...' i think melissandre wrote the letter, and i don't believe jon is dead. a co-worker posed the interesting theory that jon will prove to be the true r'hllor reborn, not stannis.

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"prison ain't so bad, you can make sangria in the terlet. 'course it's shank or be shanked''"

If I had it here, I would read that prologue again for Clash. Stannis' daughter has had maybe 5 sentences in the whole story. No one of any importance up to this book has had greyscale. I just don't want to see a major character die from something that was hardly mentioned and has had basically no impact on anything up to now.

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kitteh

What if Mance wrote the letter? Maybe he took Ramsay hostage when everyone was starving or something and escaped being caught. He certainly has a huge axe to grind with Jon.

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kitteh

I think Stannis is actually dead and Dany is R'hllor reborn. I remember a particular there being a particular passage where Melissandre was reciting some prophecy about R'hllor reborn and what she was saying jived with Dany's story. That seems to go along with what I expect is the story for the next two books: Seven Kingdoms falls into disarray since there is no king, the Others invade the Seven Kingdoms because without Jon the Wall doesn't stand, Dany comes back with the Ironborn and unites the Seven Kingdoms to defend against the Others. I think Jon might really be dead, or maybe he took over Ghost's body.

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Make your own path as you walk, and if you ever find footsteps before you turn away from them and continue to walk into the wilderness, where no man has been before you.
- Varg

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy, it is the wine of a new procreation, and I am Bacchus who presses out this glorious wine for men and makes them drunk with the spirit.
- Beethoven

I think we can all agree that the title is extremely misleading?

One thing I thought was kind of off was that toward the end, Dany was forced to give hostages to that other city as penance and Daario was one of them. Did Daario really seem like the kind of willfull and faithful follower to allow himself to be taken hostage and be a "ward"? Sure he lusted over Dany but he wasn't head over heels "I'll do anything for you" type. Seems like he would have run off the second he heard about that.

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kitteh

^yeah, I hear you there.

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You turn me on when your heart is pounding
It's ecstasy when I hear you scream
I flash a knife to your paralyzed eyes
And only I will watch you die
Psychopath - on the loose

I think the Khal who finds Dani was one of Drogo's bloodriders that took off after he died. The name seems familiar, anyway. But they all kind of sound the same.

I don't think Jon is dead. At least not permanently. Melisandre will bring him back. My room mate says his death was prophesied. Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. Also, he is Rhaegar Targaryen and Lysanna Stark's son.

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he was definitely one of drogo's bloodriders.

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"prison ain't so bad, you can make sangria in the terlet. 'course it's shank or be shanked''"

Still lame, whoever he is.

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kitteh

get over it.

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"prison ain't so bad, you can make sangria in the terlet. 'course it's shank or be shanked''"

The banker was lame too. And the title. And the first 500 pages.

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kitteh

wah!

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"prison ain't so bad, you can make sangria in the terlet. 'course it's shank or be shanked''"

Hey I didn't bump this!

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kitteh

jon can't be dead. melisandre isn't s trong enough pov character to carry the wall and they've spent too much time on him to kill him off. he'd been warging in dreams, so he'll likely just warg into ghost for a while. plus, characters don't die from their own POV in the books. it's possible someone might intervene and actually just heal his wounds.
some people see this happening to job as a way out of the watch so that he can become azor asai or whatever it is.

I didn't think the book was fantastic, but I sure enjoyed it a whole lot more than the fourth. From now on it should really just be a march to the end.

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"At my mom's currently playing some Rage on her PC"

He could end up being the Rhollor reborn or whatever it is or warg into Ghost, sure. But Jon the character is most likely dead. Jon as Jon Snow and Lord Commander and all that. It's completely possible that Martin could say that someone healed him but that would be stupid unless the whole thing was staged by the guys who stabbed him. It was their intent to kill him and they surrounded him and stabbed him multiple times. I'm pretty sure they all wouldn't just walk off and say, "oh leave him there, he'll be stone dead in a moment." If it was an organized mutiny against him by all of them, they would kill him and carry his body off somewhere. To have everything build up the way it did and have him killed in the way it happened would just be dumb if he's still alive, in human form. Why end the book like that then? It made sense when it happened. From everything else that went on in the book, that part made the most sense.

Characters have died from their own POV. Catlyn did. Right up to where she had her throat cut, she was talking in her head, "don't cut my hair, Ned likes my hair." Sure the chapter ended right there, but she died. Whether or not Melisandre is a strong enough character isn't an issue. She or whoever else would just be a vessel to show what's happening at the wall and beyond. Who thought Theon would be a strong enough character on his own, but through him Martin showed us the Ironborn and that whole side of the story.

And are we completely sure that this whole Rhollor, Azur Asai stuff is really going to happen and not that Melisandre is just a kook? I mean I realize that she's a powerful magic user and no one else really throughout the books does shit like she does, but up through this book, hasn't it all just been a bunch of talk and religious mumbo jumbo? I don't know, considering how this series has gone up to now, if it ends with Jon (or anyone for that matter) becoming some super hero god-like thing shooting fireballs at the Others, I'll be pretty disappointed.

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kitteh